Wuthering Heights
The story we have all been reading. Initial thoughts? surprisingly interesting. I don't know about you guys but this book is a really hard read for me and that's probably why it's considered such a great story. But it's not so much the story line but how it's written. I feel the author wrote this book in old 19th century style writing along with a lot of vague pronoun reference. Does anyone else feel confused and lost because often Emily B won't specify who is doing what? There is SO much he and she it's really hard to keep up! Don't get me wrong the story line it's self is fascinating. Heathcliff is one crazy character that I often wonder what I would do if I were in the other characters shoes living anywhere near the man! He is scary and enticing all at the same time. Catherine in my opinion is strong willed and weak at the same time. Her stupidity and immaturity is what makes this woman weak. It's funny how we talked in class today about love and how class rank takes a tole in the roles of marriage. My immediate thought was the difference between all of the couples. For example....take Heathcliff and Catherine, if they were to marry my best assumption would be they would take equal roles in accomplishing things that need to get done. I don't know why but it has to do with them both madly in love with each other thus both equally wanting to take care of each other. Then there is Catherine and Edgar. Edgar is WAY more in love with Catherine than she is with him thus he treats her like a princess where she hardly pays attention to him! Finally there is Heathcliff and Isabella. Before she knows the true Heathcliff she is madly in love with him while he could care less. The only reason they get married is because Heathcliff uses her as a slave and to make Catherine jealous of them. So I pose a question. According to the rules applied in the marriages in the centuries past, how woman are considered so called slaves as they do everything for their man in return for protection and providment, and how men are the dominant being as a woman are considered more like a thing, does that mean men possibly don't love their wives at least according to this story we are reading? Think about it. When ever a character loves another they take care of them, nourish them, and aid to them for anything while the ones that do not love the other pay little attention and treat the other one like crap and make them do things for them. Sound familiar? By the way I'm not saying men back then did not love their wives I'm asking is it possible that were the case for many of them back then using their woman and having marriage as an excuse to control them because apparently love was more important to some than others? But then does that mean now that more of us are treated equal that love has grown more strong and couples love each other more equally? I dunno what could cause something like this to help influence to make people think these ways but I'm just wondering.....
posted by jagzluv709
22 comments:
The obvious marriage story line seen is that Heathcliff lives through other people by forcing a marriage between his puppet, Edgar, and his one true love's spawn, Catherine.
What I find humerous is that the charactors in the book who love each other don't get married (Heathcliff and big Catherine), and the ones that end up detesting each other do (Isabella and Heathcliff, Edgar and little Catherine). This book delivers a skewed perception of marriage and I fully think Emily Bronte intended this. Satire anyone? Do you think maybe she said "Hey! Marriage in our society is ridiculous!" and decided to put that as an undertone in her book to raise awareness? I do. Emily herself never married and perhaps she was trying to tell the women of her time something about marriage both through her life as an example and through her book.
As far as modern day marriage goes, like you asked... Yes, I believe things have changed and marriage is more a union of love now than it used to be. There are still arranged and political marriages gone about for reasons without motivation of love but in our society, we have embraced the whole attitude of "love who makes you happy, do what your heart tells you". But would we have ever gotten to that point without the realization that things years ago were a little wack? That I'm unsure of.
I definitely agree that it's so confusing. I've found myself reading and rereading like two sentences trying to figure out who is who. It is quite frustrating...
But as for the marriage. I think maybe in that time love was not necessarily the basis of marriages. It was mainly for an "heir" or someone to give the house to. And in that way, it does seem that the woman is just looked at as a slave. The man just uses her to bear his children. I can kind of see it as Isabella and Ferdinand (king and queen of Spain in like the 1400s or something like that) but they did not love eachother to begin the relationship, but they married to unite Spain and create a strong monarch. Now, I'm not saying that any relationship in Wuthering Heights is like that of Isabella and Ferdinand, that's just an example of how marriage was used in that type of society.
It is really annoying how no one seems to love each other mutually. Obviously Isabella knew Heathcliff was not in love with her, yet she felt the need to stay with him to give him a child? I mean, that was the culture I assume, but if I were her, I could not imagine bearing his child knowing that he was probably picturing another woman the whole time...if you can see what I'm getting at! Anyways, all the relationships seem miss-matched. And it's frustrating!
I agree that Wuthering Heights is a very hard read. I feel like I haven't gotten half of what Emily Bronte has put into this novel. I'm so worried about just getting the general meaning of the novel so that I know what's going on, that I haven't taken any time to look for deeper meaning behind anything.
As for the whole marriage discussion... The whole basis for marriage has definately shifted from political gain to love. In fact, according to the books we use in General Psychology, the number 1 reason for marriage in the United States is love. And as to what "So Much Depends" said about the presence of arranged marriages, I agree that they still exist, but not in our culture. You really only see that still happening in foreign countries, and occasionally in the U.S., but really only with people that have come from those foreign countries.
I'm not sure I agree. Marriage is almost never just for love. Most people wouldn't just run off with a beautiful, caring beggar. Instead they will look for someone with either the same amount of or more of what they have. (rather that be money, status, looks etc.)
True today we are given more options in the love department, but how many people really base their marriage on just love?? I would say not many.
It is possible that relationships like Heathcliff and Isabella's did occur more often back then when marriage was all about property and security. Naturally there are going to be the few who wait to find love. I think a lot of men, especially back then, needed to control or have possession over something like the woman and/or her property. I believe that nowadays women feel they should have more equality in the relationship. I know that when I get married I want to make sure that I have a say in things and that I don't feel owned by someone else because he has testosterone.
I really think that marriage thing back in that time marriage was not about love but about the gain of property or a jump in society. Big Catherine marries Edgar because of the social gain but in time I think she begins to love him. Also I big thing that is different from today is the whole "man rule." The women really have no say in anything, nothing is even owned by them.
In today's world marriage is more about love than gain of property or social status or anything like that. But I do feel that some relationships are not really based off of true love but off of looks or sometimes income, which I feel is stupid.
Also, women do hold there own jobs and can support themselves, which is totally opposite from what happened back in the time of Wuthering Heights.
Catherine and Heathcliffe's love is stupid. Sure they had fun as adolescents causing mischief together like everyone else at their age but as they grew up they barely talked to one another. When they did meet, I believe they were just attempting to remember the fun times they had growing up. Both were messed up adults. Catherine had a case of the crazies and Heathcliffe was greedy and mean. I doubt both could stand each other had they spent more time together in their adult phase (shortly before Catherine's death). How many times has everyone attempted to regress to their childhood through actions or thoughts? This reflection on the past defined Catherine and Healthcliffe's love for each other.
Once you realize that most of the story is one giant quotion it really isn't that hard to follow. I have to say that while I liked the ending the happiness of it felt off from the mood of the rest of the book.
I don't think anyone in either class has dealt with anyone as poorly socialized as heathcliff was in the begining of the novel, making his actions seem cruel and unexplainable.
I would agree that the story was a bit confusing at times. I really had to pay attention to who all was talking during the long verbal passages or I would get lost easily.
As for the marriage discussion, I believe a lot has changed since the time of Wuthering Heights. While many marriages aren't based entirely on love, love definitely plays a much larger role than it did in the past. People obviously want to know they have a good future financially when they get married (like Hydraulics stated), but I think people do use that as a "must have" when dating, so they naturally fall in love with someone who they are happy with.
I believe much of the initial confusion comes from the language of the time period. I'm not sure how people of Bronte's age would react to our present day spoken and written communication style. For me, I gradually grew more accustomed to the language and could decipher the content more easily as the book progressed.
I agree that the role of marriage has shifted away from political or financial gain to more freedom in finding a counterpart based on love. However, more specifically, people in present day society have an option of finding someone suitable of their own acceptable social standing. During Emily's life, the simple goal of marriage for women was to provide them with a stable life. Women had far less opportunities than men to be educated and have the ability to sustain themselves. If there was a man to be found that is capable of providing for them, why not take him? Keeping oneself alive over love was the reality of the time. Today, women are independent. They have the ability and circumstances to look beyond a source of food and shelter.
I would disaggree with Cathrine being a weak woman. The only way she is weak to me is that she falls into her desires easily. For example, during Cathrine and Edgars love scene, Cathrine folds to her desire to kiss and confess her eternal love for Heathcliff even though she knows how much Edgar loves her. However, I don't believe that following your desires is necessarily a weakness maybe even a strenght. But back on topic I believe Cathrine is the second strongest character next to Cathrine II. She got what she wanted almost every time. She is manipulative and headstrong. For example, When she moved in with Edgar and Isabella she manipulated them into waiting on her, because is they didn't she would pout and be angry. She is headstrong in the fact that she would not give up Heathcliff for Edgar or Edgar for Heathcliff. I keep thinking that if she were put in this time era then she would just be a competive person. Through that competition she would be an athlete and maybe become successful woman.
Well from a broad outlook of the book Wuthering Heights, the reader can tell there is a definite good and evil in this book. The good being things like the Grange and all of its inhabitants, and the evil, Wuthering Heights in all of its inhabitants. There is also the moors in between the two houses, which are not good or evil, but can be described simply as plain...
O ya, I forgot to talk about the rest of the story line...
Heathcliff is quite possibly the most evil diabolical person I have ever read about. I mean how he manipulates his own wife and his own son just to obtain the Grange is absolutely crazy! Also the fact that he intimidates everybody around him to get his way... but that is just a show, because his bark is definitely worse than his bite, like when Edgar and him were locked in the room by Cathrine, and Heathcliff just stood there and took it! The only people Heathcliff has to ruff up are the ones who are weak, like Linton and Cathy. This is all added to the fact that the guy hung a dog also! I mean enough said...
Catherine comes across as a nice girl like her daughter in this story. She meets Heathcliff when he is a young orphan, and instead of going "Hindley" on him, she actually becomes his friend and his love. But I question why she ended up with Edgar instead of Heathcliff... I guess Bronte just wanted to make her story interesting. But anyway, Catherine was a good person and Heathcliff's reason to be a nice person, but once she died, Heathcliff became a jerk and lost his reason to live... Which I am certain is why he killed him self by starvation and or sickness.
That is all I have to say about that for now...
Coleman's Fav--whoever you are, you are not my fave. I do not have faves. Stop with this dangerous delusion now.
Every character in Wuthering Heights has a weakness (maybe expect Edgar), not just
Catherine and Heathcliff. I don't know if Emily Bronte intentionally created the characters in this fashion, but I think the characters themselves serve a pupose; to exemplify all the flawed traits within human existance.
For example, Mrs. Nelly Dean is caring and loyal, yet a gossip who often distorts the stories she over hears and events she witnesses.
Heathcliff is handsome and intelligent, yet he uses his assets to be revengeful and cruel. Catherine I is beautiful and playful, yet assumes everyone is put on Earth to serve her and whines like no other.
Catherine II is spunky and free-spirited, but has some tendencies to be like her mother.
Linton is just a plain weakling (I never found anything to like about him).
Hindley has had so many set backs that he just doesn't care.
The list goes on with every other character.
One question keeps arising: which is to blame nature or nurture?
I guess it's a combination of them both.
I found it hard to remain focused on the text while I reading Wuthering Heights. Once I get to the end of the page, I think, "What did I just read?". This usually never happens to me because I like to read slowly and "get lost in the story", but Bronte's writing technique did not help me gain an image of the plot at all. Bronte embellishes the story with descriptions of the surroundings, the characters' demeanor, and their emotions. These elements are usually what I love about literature, but the elaborations were much too dramatic for me to gain my interest. I felt most of the text was unnecessary. Sorry! I'm sure that there was a lot of beautiful symbolism, imagery, foreshadowing, and whatever else within the text, but I DID NOT CATCH IT. As you probably have guessed, I did not enjoy this novel...TOO MUCH DRAMA. I'm not going to say that this book was "hard" to read, but I will say that I didn't have enough interest or focus to really try to analyze the plot.
I also wanted to comment on the "marriage" topic. Most people have said that the meaning or purpose of marriage has changed in the U.S. throughout time. Most have said that marriage now has more value because it is mostly out of pure love. Some have described marriage as something that Americans really value. I disagree...somewhat. I think more Americans today are losing interest in marriage. Marriage is slowly being washed away from the American Dream and a "must" in life. People are either scared because of the high rates of divorce, people have more important things to focus on...like work (unfortunately), or people just don't see the point. they may love someone, but don't feel like making things more complicated with the whole marriage process and all that comes with it. I don't know...my parents are divorced and I know that neither of them are getting remarried. I also know that a lot of adults have given me the advice to wait til I'm 30 to get married or TO NOT GET MARRIED AT ALL!!! Anyone else see the trend???
To Sun Goddess and friends:
Yes i too see the trend in which marriage has become less desired by today's society. My parents are also (take a wild guess) divorced! And neither of them are remarried or out hunting for a new match as so many broken couples i know are via sources such as match.com, eharmony, and other such hardlined match makers.
Personally i just don't believe you can find someone to spend the rest of your life with over edited e-mails and photoshop pictures (not that i'm saying all messages and pictures shared are of this nature, and yes i am aware that some internet relationships do pan out). I'm inclined to think people just want the thrill and excitement of attaining a partner. The nostalgia of being on the prowl. They don't actually want to stick it out when they realize who their significant other really is. For example, poor Izzy got hitched only to find her significant other was an uber mistake! Bet she was hitting a "redo" button in her head every time Heathy walked in the room.
Hmm, kind of sounds like the majority of the romantic realtionships in this novel: Indulgent when trying to attain a mate, but sourly unsatisfying once the games are over. :(
Personally, I enjoyed the book Wuthering Heights. The characters were fascinating, especailly the parallel between Catherine and Heathcliff's relationship and young Cathy and Hareton's relationship. I agree with the blogger who stated that they felt that the book was difficult to read because it was hard to tell who the author was talking about. As I got toward the end of the book, it got easier for me to understand the writing style. I think it just takes a little adjusting to for everyone. There were two things that really helped me understand the book better. The first thing was using the family tree on one of the first few pages of the book. I frequently referred to this to help me keep the characters straight. The second thing that hepled me was researching things about the book online. One website I used is sparknotes.com. After reading the chapter, I would read their analysis for it and it would help me fill in the blanks for what I didn't understand. I didn't use it in place of reading the chapters, I just used to help me understand the reading better. Reading isn't one of my strengths but this class has definetly made me a better reader. Now back to the relationship parallel. I think that Hareton is young Cathy's Heathcliff. What I mean by this is that just like Heathcliff was Catherine's 'forbidden love' so was Hareton for young Cathy. First i will start by explaining the dynamics of Catherine and Heathcliff's relationship. Once Heathcliff was introduced to the Earnshaw family, he was immediately taken in as Mr.Earnshaw's son. This made Hindley very jealous and caused tension between their characters. Catherine and Heathcliff were playmates. She had a strong personality and fit in well with Heathcliff. When Catherine moved to live with the Lintons, things changed between them drastically. Catherine came back home all proper and well mannered while Heathcliff was still expecting the same old Catherine, his playmate. Catherine was now on a different level and this made Heathcliff very upset. He knew things werent going to be the same between them ever again. When romance sparks between Catherine and Edgar, Heathcliff feels threatened and tries to make Catherine jealous by courting Isabella. Catherine ends up marrying Edgar and Heathcliff ends up marrying Isabella, but neither of them were in love with their spouses. They longed to be with eachother and once Catherine dies, Heathcliff is full of revenge and will never be the same until he and Catherine are reunited in death. Now I will explain the dynamics of young Cathy and Hareton's relationship. Young Cathy has a lot of her mom in her. She has a strong spirit and gets what she wants when she wants it. Cahty first finds a friend in Linton. I think that is all she truly ever wanted out of that relationship. Heathcliff forced Linton and Cathy to become more, just like Catherine was forced to marry Edgar for social reasons. Linton was someone Cathy could take care of and almost take advantage of, which might be a reason she thrived on their relationship. I find their relationship kind of strange, not to mention the fact that they were cousins. Anyway, once Linton died and Cathy lived at Wuthering Heights, she started to build a relationship with Hareton. Of course, it started with fighting and her making fun of his illiteracy but eventually they became more. Heathcliff's death brought life to their relationship.
I didn't read all the posts... it was taking too long... BUT
MarriageOf course living in modern America marriage seems ridiculous if used for anything other than love. But let's take a second and step out of our own shoes. To us, marriage comes after love. Back in the day, love came after marriage. Two people were binded together and they made it work. They didn't choose who to love because to them getting that close to someone before marriage was dangerous. Boundaries could be crossed, families could get in fights, there was a lot to marriage. Now before you think I'm saying WH marriages were good, by the time of Wuthering Heights marriage sucked. It was almost solely for gain separate from love. But really if you think about the idea of marrying before loving someone, then growing close and learning to love them, it isn't that bad....
Personally, I could do either. I could get married and then grow close to that person and learn to love them. A lot of marriages lack excitement nowadays because:
1) Sex is fine before marriage. Ok, then what is the point of marriage? Just live together and have sex and be merry.
2) They already know everything about each other... What else is there to do? Americans live together, have sex, and love each other all before marriage. So... what does marriage do..? Nothing.
Sorry for preaching but both versions of marriage suck. WH's marriages all sucked, with the exception of maybe Cathy2 and Hareton; and America's marriage sucks, there is no excitement.
So don't think America's marriage is so awesome, and every other kind is terrible. Because that just isn't true.
So i kind of came in on the tail end of this post. And I won't lie and say i read all of the responses because, let's face it, that would take time and it would most likely result in me forgetting what it was that i meant to say in the first place. So here it goes....
In the time period that Wuthering Heights was written, there was a different outlook on marriage. Women were seen as the more delicate, nurturing sex and therefore were expected to...well, nurture their husbands. I don't think it was ever a question of a man not loving his wife simply because of this behavior. I almost think that it would have been out of the ordinary had a husband not treated his wife as "a slave"...which i believe, even in this instance, is not the proper term. "Slave" carries with it connotations of cruelty that I don't believe apply here.
I think that there are just as many loveless marriages now as there were back then. The reasons behind these unions has certainly changed (i.e. providing an heir vs. avoiding deportation) but the patterns remain the same.
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